jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26 
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Post by jcpyro on Jul 28, 2016 15:08:41 GMT -5
Got asked a question the other day regarding safety ignition products - Visco and other forms of safety fuse. Looks like members of the Firearms community are under the impression that safety fuse does not require, exclusively, an ERD operators cert or FX cert. It was my belief that all safety fuse MUST be sold only to Pyrotechnics licensed individuals without question.
I may actually be in error.
As it turns out I spoke with the RCMP about this and they confirmed that it is quite common for holders of PALs (possession acquisition license) who are members of the "black powder" firearms community almost always use fuse. Under their license they are permitted to possess powders and ignition supplies that relate to their community - with certain restrictions. Safety fuse as the officer told me is not a firework and comes under the same class as rifle or shotgun primer and saw no reason why it couldn't be sold to someone showing a valid PAL. As he said - most black powder shooters get frustrated getting told they can't buy from certain buisnesses because of ___ so they go directly to the US to purchase.
Really sad I think!
--- on another note:
I spoke with MGJ industries regarding electric matches. Turns out that Jeff - the owner of the company has been granted dual use status for his large J-Teks, MJG Firewire initiators and quick fires for use for both Pyrotechnics and high power rocketry. ERD does confirm this. You no longer need an operators certificate for these ignitors, period. Anyone over 18 years can purchase these - I can provide the letter that Jeff shared with me a bit later from ERD.
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Post by khogan on Jul 29, 2016 5:27:31 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this great info! I though the same as you that you needed a pyrotechnic license for fuse and was wondering why some gun suppliers could sell it.
Is there anywhere we can buy the MJG firewire igniters in Canada?
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Post by Lumadue on Jul 29, 2016 7:51:22 GMT -5
Most of the pyrotechnic companies who purchase the igniters won't sell to the general public.
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jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26
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Post by jcpyro on Jul 29, 2016 19:51:21 GMT -5
Most of the pyrotechnic companies who purchase the igniters won't sell to the general public.
*** MJG ignitors can be purchased directly from MJG Technologies in the US and the Firewire, JTEK and mini types have the following recertification attached - F or I and now added class R (R3) (rocket motor - mid and high power) - they effectively have no hazardous materials charge by way of USPS because they are classed as a toy model rocket ignitor. So anyone over 18 years can import them. Members of the Canadian Association of Rocketry were getting upset being told that they all required licenses to purchase cheaper pyrogen ignitors from local fireworks and FX companies and I don't blame them for feeling this way. ERD also recognized that MJG Technologies had a special contract with Cesaroni Technology Incorporated, a Canadian company specializing in mid/high impulse rocket motors that sells to the public and Military. So by effect the ignitors were already being sold with the solid fuel reloads for the past 25 years. It therefore made little sense to keep MJG ignitors a purely professional and highly restricted item. Now, of course like buying any ignitor your personal information will be used to track the sale. allcanadianrocketengines.ca and sunward hobbies - both Ontario based companies - carries these JTek ignitors and are sold frequently. Both individuals know the new rules and are pyro licensed individual as well. I would stick with allcanadianrocketengines.ca. - best company in Canada for rocketry, hands down. Best supply prices as well. ----------------- More on fuse and the law - lawyer for a local firearms group had this to say.... "A holder of a PAL or FAC - for Firearms: can purchase ammunition, powders and all ignition supplies related to the safe discharge of a firearm. This included smokeless propellants, black powder and substitutes. + percussion caps and all types of pyrotechnic safety fuse and ignitor cord. The PAL or FAC is a Federal ID that is tracked by all Federal Ministries. In fact many shooters go to the blasting supply places to purchase GOEX black powder because when the firearms outlets run out the pyro FX groups will almost always refuse to sell to anyone without the Pyro operators certificate. Please note - under the current ERD regs there is nothing that is written that would prohibit the sale of fuse or black powder to anyone other than those with an operators certificate/FX license. The PAL or FAC is a perfectly permitted substitute for the purchase of fuse and/or Black Powder."
The RCMP also confirmed this. Rusty Trading in Mission B.C. carries an unbelievable amount of fuse and the requirement that he asks for is either the PAL/FAC, operators cert or Pyro FX license. BTW he sells a lot! I've also included a PDF that shows clearly the change in the MJG Industries dual use certification, just to prove my point. Attachments:3776_001A.pdf (924.86 KB)
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Post by Lumadue on Jul 30, 2016 8:45:54 GMT -5
Most of the pyrotechnic companies who purchase the igniters won't sell to the general public.
*** To reinform you. Never did I say they were not allowed. Most will not sell to the general public as it is a large liability issue. |
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jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26
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Post by jcpyro on Jul 30, 2016 12:15:33 GMT -5
To answer your question: They either are very ill informed or have decided to become "exclusive communities".
*** To reinform you. Never did I say they were not allowed. Most will not sell to the general public as it is a large liability issue. So when a person walks through the door of an FX company and present their PAL or FAC and they ask for fuse or GOEX black powder they still get told - sorry can't do buisness with you. To make my case, I just came back from an early morning cannon shoot with some individuals from an film crew. The firearms owners all stated they have to either deal directly importing it from the US, firearms sporting goods store or blasting supply company - the FX companies wouldn't budge even though they had good pricing on powder. See what I mean?! Nothing to do with liability.... Sign the powder book and be done with it. I don't get it, sorry! If you don't have a license - PAL/FAC, Pyro FX or Operators license then I can see the problem. This brings me back to my original statement - the FX companies only deal with those of their community, regardless. More information in my discussions with law enforcement: "If a cannon requires a safety fuse or cord to ignite the powder safely it falls under "reenactment - black powder" and under law it is permitted. No special pyro certificate or special permit is needed for the aquisition of either pyrotechnic fuse or cord. A PAL or FAC license is sufficent. We have a very long history of these products being safely employed in the antique and reenactment firearms community in Canada." ------------------------ DIVISION 1 Rules for Sellers
Acquisition for Sale and Storage
Marginal note:Acquisition
364 A seller may acquire, store and sell special effect pyrotechnics if they hold a licence. A seller who acquires special effect pyrotechnics must comply with this Division.
Marginal note: Storage
365 (1) A seller must store their special effect pyrotechnics in the magazine specified in their licence.
Marginal note:Electric matches
(2) A seller must not store electric matches in a magazine in which other special effect pyrotechnics are stored.
Marginal note: No display for sale
366 A seller must not display special effect pyrotechnics for sale.
Marginal note:Transfer of powder
367 A seller must not transfer propellant powder from one container to another for the purpose of sale unless their licence authorizes them to do so.
Sale
Marginal note:Certificate required
368 (1) A seller may sell special effect pyrotechnics only to a buyer who holds the fireworks operator certificate that is required for use of the pyrotechnics that are to be bought.
Marginal note:Licence and certificate required
(2) A seller may sell initiation systems or detonating cord only to a buyer who holds a licence and a fireworks operator certificate (special effects pyrotechnician — detonating cord).
Marginal note:Exception
(3) Despite subsection 1, a seller may sell flash cotton, flash paper, flash string, sparkle string or propellant powder to a buyer who holds neither a licence nor a fireworks operator certificate.
Marginal note:Licence required
(4) A seller may sell special effect pyrotechnics to a buyer who is not a user only if the buyer holds a licence.
Marginal note:Maximum quantity — licensed buyer
369 (1) A seller must not sell more special effect pyrotechnics to a licensed buyer than the buyer is authorized by their licence to store.
Marginal note:Maximum quantity — unlicensed buyer
(2) A seller must not sell more special effect pyrotechnics to an unlicensed buyer than the buyer is authorized by this Part to store.
Marginal note:Identification
370 (1) Before selling special effect pyrotechnics, the seller must require the buyer to establish their identity by showing either
(a) a piece of identification, issued by the Government of Canada or a provincial, municipal or foreign government, that bears a photograph of the user; or
(b) two pieces of identification, each of which sets out the buyer’s name, at least one of which is issued by the Government of Canada or a provincial, municipal or foreign government and at least one of which sets out the buyer’s address.
Marginal note:Comparison
(2) If the buyer provides a piece of identification that bears a photograph, the seller must, before selling the special effect pyrotechnics, ensure that the photograph is that of the buyer.
Marginal note:Record of sale
371 A seller must keep a record of every sale of special effect pyrotechnics for two years after the date of the sale. The record must include the following information:
(a) the buyer’s name and address;
(b) if applicable, the number and expiry date of the buyer’s licence and, if applicable, the number and expiry date of the buyer’s fireworks operator certificate;
(c) the type and Footnote *product name of each special effect pyrotechnic sold and the name of the person who obtained its authorization;
(d) the quantity of special effect pyrotechnics sold under each Footnote *product name;
(e) a short description of the effects of any Footnote *explosive article sold;
(f) the size of the container in which any propellant powder was sold; and
(g) the date of the sale.
------------------------------------------------
"Rules for Users and Other Acquirers
SUBDIVISION aUsers without a Licence or Certificate
Flash Cotton, Flash Paper, Flash String and Sparkle String
Marginal note:Acquisition
372 A user who holds neither a fireworks operator certificate nor a licence may acquire, store and use flash cotton, flash paper, flash string and sparkle string.
Marginal note:Storage
373 A user who acquires flash cotton, flash paper, flash string or sparkle string must store it in a dwelling or a Footnote *storage unit and ensure that the requirements of sections 374, 382 and 383 are met.
Return to footnote *Terms preceded by an asterisk are defined in section 6.
Marginal note: Maximum quantity
374 No more than 200 g of flash cotton, 1 kg of flash paper, 200 g of flash string and 200 g of sparkle string may be stored at any one time.
Percussion Caps and Propellant Powder Used in Historical Re-enactments
Marginal note: Acquisition
375 (1) A user who holds neither a fireworks operator certificate nor a licence may acquire, store and use percussion caps and propellant powder, if the caps and powder are acquired for use in original or reproduction firearms in an historical re-enactment.
Marginal note:Requirements for use
(2) A user who acquires percussion caps and propellant powder for an historical re-enactment
(a) must have the written approval of the Footnote *local authority to hold the re-enactment or must be under the supervision of a person who has that approval; and
(b) must have experience in the safe use of explosives in historical re-enactments, have completed a course on this use certified by the Minister or be under the supervision of a person who has that experience or has completed such a course.
Return to footnote *Terms preceded by an asterisk are defined in section 6.
SOR/2016-75, s. 38.
Previous Version
Marginal note:Storage
376 A user must store their percussion caps and propellant powder in a dwelling or in a Footnote *storage unit and ensure that the requirements of sections 377 to 380, 382 and 383 are met.
Return to footnote *Terms preceded by an asterisk are defined in section 6.
Marginal note:Percussion caps
377 (1) Percussion caps must be stored in their original packaging.
Marginal note:Smokeless powder
(2) Smokeless powder must be stored in its original container or in Footnote *small arms cartridges.
Marginal note:Black powder
(3) Black powder must be stored in its original container, in small arms cartridges or in black powder cartouches.
Return to footnote *Terms preceded by an asterisk are defined in section 6.
Marginal note:Detached dwellings or site of use
378 The maximum quantity of propellant powder that may be stored at any one time in a detached dwelling, in a Footnote *storage unit attached to a detached dwelling or in a storage unit at the site of use is 25 kg, of which no more than 10 kg may be black powder." |
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Post by Lumadue on Aug 1, 2016 9:57:18 GMT -5
Most FX companies are not suppliers, it's all based on their insurance policies. If they tell their insurance provider they only vendor consumer fireworks (some may not even vendor consumer) and use display level fireworks and pyrotechnic assecories for themselves. And then go and vendor materials that they have not stated in their policy. It won't be very good for them, if and/or when a person who handles the product, with or without a proper license or certificate gets injured.
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jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26
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Post by jcpyro on Aug 1, 2016 12:18:05 GMT -5
Most FX companies are not suppliers, it's all based on their insurance policies. If they tell their insurance provider they only vendor consumer fireworks (some may not even vendor consumer) and use display level fireworks and pyrotechnic assecories for themselves. And then go and vendor materials that they have not stated in their policy. It won't be very good for them, if and/or when a person who handles the product, with or without a proper license or certificate gets injured. That's interesting. The FX companies I've spoken to all have magazine licenses and sell directly to the movie industry - they are suppliers under law. As as in the case of blasting or firearms outlets - they all have the "safe use is the users responsibility - we will not be held liable for any damages." This is a good policy to have! |
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Post by Aussie on Aug 21, 2016 7:06:32 GMT -5
i think something needs to clarified here
The ematches that K&H, GFA, whysall, royale, myself and other companies use are a completely different initiator to the ematches MJG are distributing for the consumer.
MJG sell a variety of ematches, and wire (Seminole).
I don't care what the rules state, unless your licenced (display operator or SFX) your not getting commercial grade ematches or fuse from me, other operators may have different policies. If you have a permit, and insurance, and want ematches, you should be talking to whomever you got insurance from. That's my choice. And my insurance
ALL liability falls to the insurance provider. It's up to them to issue the matches
The consumer matches, that are in debate here are not what we use, they are lower in energetic composition and I wouldn't trust them to light my product or show, I'm not taking any chances with my shows so I'll spend the money.
They don't spit as far and have on occasion failed to light my product in tests. You can get these from the hobby stores, and no one other than the purchaser is 'on the hook' for liability
If your buying fuse for your show, you'd better be linking product as altering product is illegal even if your replacing a short fuse for a long one, if your doing this, your show insurance is void and you are completely on the hook should something fail in the worst way possible
If you come to me with a PAL wanting ematches and fuse, I will not be able to help you.
Sorry
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Post by khogan on Aug 26, 2016 6:11:39 GMT -5
Good info aussie, I got what you were saying from the beginning but its nice that you clarified it even more as it seemed like there was some confusion between these and real e-matches. There was a lot of info on pyrouniverse about these when they first became available in the US, if I recall they use a different composition that is not as dangerous as real e-matches. I wonder if places like rocket will start selling these as they already sell talons. Here is a link to where you can buy them (out of stock right now but were in stock when this thread started): www.allrocketengines.ca/Igniters/Firewire-20?zenid=062kufojvs5gsqgan3ca44p930Some places still want some certification, which is fine too but not required by law: www.buyrocketmotors.com/mjg-firewire-initiator-3-foot-stripped-leads/ATF Non Regulated. However, you must show proof of NAR or Tripoli membership. Respond to email confirmation with image of your membership card. An email confirmation from either organization will suffice as well. I am interested in what type of tests you did aussie? If you can share I would be interested. Did you try to shoot consumer by attaching directly to the fuse and that's where you had bad results? Did the matches fail to ignite at all, or ignite but not light the fuse? Were you testing on 1.3 product? Seems it would be kinda pointless to use these on 1.3 as if you have 1.3 you can have real e-matches, but I could see these as useful for a consumer show. Any comparison to Talons? |
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Post by Aussie on Aug 26, 2016 7:13:33 GMT -5
The ones I tried down in the states only shot a small amount
Unless you "punch" into a consumer cake it's not easy getting them lit
Canadian pyro have a design on the plastic shroud that allows you to thread the visco through it, strong stuff... Lights them everytime and no manipulation or alteration is required on the cake
Sadly I don't have a photo
The "baby" ematches might be ATF non regulated but I'm pretty sure you can bet the ERD with have some sort of control over them. As to what that is, I don't know.
David
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jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26
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Post by jcpyro on Aug 28, 2016 3:10:42 GMT -5
Your choice not to sell. You are proving my point I made earlier about this topic....
---- now to clear up ---
David, define a "licensed user" under current ERD regulations. What does this mean?
Fact: under law a PAL holder is a "licensed user" under the Explosives Act.
If ERD told you that only a pyrotechnics or FX licensed individual can purchase fuse then they are contradicting the law - I have had a lawyer already on this. This would also mean that a person with an Industrial Explosives license couldn't purchase fuse, which we all know is false. Anyone who handles powder( and is licensed to do so under law )is permitted to purchase fuse. Hence - why Black Powder cannon clubs and individuals across Canada buy fuse on whole sale from Blasting Companies with out legal complications.
II. MJG Ignitors - FireWire are consumer grade.
Thats true - right you are.
MJG Industries applied for dual use and was given approval in April 2016 - on request of the Canadian Association of Rocketry - for a variety of ematches that are used in amature displays and professional firework competitions all over the world. Last time I saw them used was in Macau - linking several large displays together for Team USA using JTEKs. These JTEKs are not consumer grade e matches, I assure you!! I will encourage you David to have a chat with Jeff at MJG Industries. Should I give you his number? I have it.
JTEKs are a restricted purchase by US citizens and require an ATF permit. Obviously, this doesn't apply to us here. In Canada, JTEKs are approved for dual use - type I and type R.3 and were previously sold in CTi rocket motor reload kits for high power motors in Canada for the past 20 years and no special license was needed.
Go figure, eh!
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Post by Aussie on Aug 28, 2016 9:35:02 GMT -5
My understanding
Licensed user - someone who has proven themselves competent in handling explosive to the satisfaction of a higher body willing to entrust the industries common sense standards.
Someone who I'm willing to put I front of my insurance policy because I know they're going to use products in the correct fashion
Licensed user - ematches will free flow as required
PAL license - sorry not interested, nor is my insurance company, confirmed that on Friday.
Plenty of places in Canada that will sell them, so this is not an issue for anyone looking to purchase. I've been in this industry for 24 years, I've seen a lot of bastardization of material, using it for other unauthorized purposes, illegal purposes, and intended purposes
I can ask a couple of questions over the phone, and very quickly figure whether a person knows what they're doing, and what they want material for
My comments weren't legal requirements, they were my opinion only and my choice and right to refuse to sell to persons I choose not to sell to
I will sell, but you'd better have your ducks in a row before you call
My insurance stays intact, an insurance that is already too expensive and difficult to find in the first place
Why would I jeopardize that?
David
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jcpyro
Junior Pyro Member
Posts: 26
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Post by jcpyro on Aug 29, 2016 11:40:48 GMT -5
Your insurance is highly specialized and you shouldnt place that at risk. Fair enough. It is surprising that your insurance company would consider a safety product like fuse to be an issue, but as you say, plenty of people selling it across Canada legally. Your buisness, your rules. But you are proving my point that was made earlier on the topic. Those in the Firearms community, regardless of how it is seen by those in Pyrotechnics Industry, are licensed users under the explosives act. Plain - and simple. This type of - us vs them - divides communities. It boils down to the law and it is clear. My lawyer confirms it, Industrial Explosives ticketed companies confirm it, yet the myth still prevails! Blasting Supply Houses who have the magazine license still carry bulk Black Powder and yes, the z19, Thermalite, Visco and time fuse and will sell to PAL holders - this is all 100% legal. Absolutely! No special Pyro certificate or RCMP statement is needed.
However, e matches are unique. They are dangerous if misused. Agreed. Only 1 brand of professional e match from MJG Industies has been made dual purpose and permitted for rocketry use. That is the JTEK. You rightly state those others ematches by MJG Industies are hobbiest grade and are of a unique composition.
More fuel for my writing and oh how very very long it is. Basically, we have so many inconsistencies in our regs you could drive a truck through them.
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Post by Aussie on Sept 13, 2016 16:19:04 GMT -5
What he said LOL
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