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Post by huggyd on Nov 11, 2015 17:56:46 GMT -5
Just pondering the idea. But if the good old government is looking for ways to raise cash then what about a Mandatory Safety class.
Do this Saturday all day class and get a F.1 fireworks safety card that will legally allow you to buy fireworks. Make it a moderate price like $50.00 good for 5years and renew at $10.00 or something. Cover a lot of safety related items and legal stuff, it would help the general public. Without this card or a Pyro tech / display card no fireworks for you. Kind of like the whole boating card. When that 1st came out I had to do a whole day course and write an exam at the end, now its a joke do it online.
Not sure if this would help or hinder the industry.
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Post by khogan on Nov 11, 2015 19:01:08 GMT -5
I'm all for safety and like the idea, but I think it would hurt the industry. My though is people would not want to do a safety course so they will either not do it and will not buy fireworks, or a underground market will grow then people will end up getting 1.3 and kill themselves.
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Post by huggyd on Nov 12, 2015 8:10:16 GMT -5
You really think that would start an underground market? The 1.3 are hard enough to get even with a lic. The stuff at the local general store, you have to be 18y to buy so they have to card for that any ways. As long as the course is not over priced, it may dry up some stores bring them in for the few days your allowed to sell them, but the real good stores the real stores would have course to run, money to collect another source of income if you well. Again just think of all the stupid stuff I have done and I have seen people do.
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Post by khogan on Nov 12, 2015 11:13:14 GMT -5
People just do stupid stuff all the time but I don't think we should have more laws to try to protect them. I think a safety course would be good but should not be required. Maybe they could have a course you need to do to buy bigger items like cakes and let people that don't want to do the course only buy roman candles and fountains. although it seems to be roman candles that people hurt themselves with by holding them. Look at what people do with RC quadcopters (Drones) now, flying them by airports and over crowded events. Here is a story I just saw today about someone crashing their quadcopter into a ferris wheel www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rogue-drone-slams-ferris-wheel-near-downtown-seattles-waterfront-n461936 |
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Post by huggyd on Nov 12, 2015 16:16:24 GMT -5
True and good point, I guess you can't protect against stupid.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 22:33:15 GMT -5
I do not agree there are more smart people then stupid and the company would lose money and the blackmarket would sky rocket.
I am for safety...they should probably advertise safety tips and what to do and not to when its time for fireworks in your city.
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Post by markhampyro on Nov 13, 2015 8:33:42 GMT -5
Victory Fireworks has safety videos on their YouTube page. 'How to light a Roman candle, cake, barrage, etc.'. They should make it mandatory to watch a safety video of what you buy and sign off on it.
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Post by huggyd on Nov 13, 2015 21:26:29 GMT -5
I do not agree there are more smart people then stupid and the company would lose money and the blackmarket would sky rocket. I am for safety...they should probably advertise safety tips and what to do and not to when its time for fireworks in your city. I guess that would be the best way to go, start putting up ads on TV or radio when its firework time, show / tell people the do's and don't.
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Post by huggyd on Dec 2, 2016 7:19:05 GMT -5
So I am going to bring this up again. Only due to the fact that I had a guy at work tell me that, last year him and some people from neighborhood do a small firework show just in their court, this was Canada day I think, he had a small cake like a grape soda cake and it tipped over on him and ran up and tried to reposition it with his foot but not before it put some shots in the side of a couple of parked cars. Luck no one was hurt, and their was minimal damage to cars, the cars that were hit apparently his relatives. So I was telling him different things he could of done to keep that from happening, I also asked if there was a flyer or some that came with the fireworks that would have told him a safe way to lite them off, that was followed with a "no I don't think so" I ask if there was a Consumer firework Safety class that was set up would he be inclined to take it. The answer was, If it was reasonable priced, a one time cost, and there was something worth while at the end of it, like a discount on fireworks.
I think educating people is a worth while thing. I am not for more over reaching government legal BS but I also don't think hearing the general public put people \ property in danger because of mistakes like tipping cakes, or improper disposal does the industry any favors.
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Post by markhampyro on Dec 2, 2016 9:16:50 GMT -5
Let's be honest. Common sense is lacking throughout society. There are safety instructions on vast majority the product out there....which people never ever read. So I am going to bring this up again. Only due to the fact that I had a guy at work tell me that, last year him and some people from neighborhood do a small firework show just in their court, this was Canada day I think, he had a small cake like a grape soda cake and it tipped over on him and ran up and tried to reposition it with his foot but not before it put some shots in the side of a couple of parked cars. Luck no one was hurt, and their was minimal damage to cars, the cars that were hit apparently his relatives. So I was telling him different things he could of done to keep that from happening, I also asked if there was a flyer or some that came with the fireworks that would have told him a safe way to lite them off, that was followed with a "no I don't think so" I ask if there was a Consumer firework Safety class that was set up would he be inclined to take it. The answer was, If it was reasonable priced, a one time cost, and there was something worth while at the end of it, like a discount on fireworks. I think educating people is a worth while thing. I am not for more over reaching government legal BS but I also don't think hearing the general public put people \ property in danger because of mistakes like tipping cakes, or improper disposal does the industry any favors. |
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Post by khogan on Dec 2, 2016 15:53:03 GMT -5
huggyd do you have any good resources we could link to? We can ask Pyro Boss about settings up a safety page like we have the Canadian Consumer Fireworks page. I am not sure if anyone ends up on this site that is not already a big pyro fan but maybe some do and it could help.
Every firework has instructions for lighting them off but sometimes they are generic. The little cakes can be dangerous, how did he set it up? I am guessing just sitting on the ground with no bracing of any kind? I try to avoid the little cakes all together but when I do use them I like to tape a few together to get a better base then attach them to a board.
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Post by huggyd on Dec 2, 2016 17:35:36 GMT -5
huggyd do you have any good resources we could link to? We can ask Pyro Boss about settings up a safety page like we have the Canadian Consumer Fireworks page. I am not sure if anyone ends up on this site that is not already a big pyro fan but maybe some do and it could help. Every firework has instructions for lighting them off but sometimes they are generic. The little cakes can be dangerous, how did he set it up? I am guessing just sitting on the ground with no bracing of any kind? I try to avoid the little cakes all together but when I do use them I like to tape a few together to get a better base then attach them to a board. Yeah your right Khogan just put the cake on the ground and sparked it up. As for resources nope, maybe when I have some time to sit down and work on that stuff, type out a .doc and see what happens. I am just starting a conversation, one to get some posts turning over on the site, and two see where people stand on different things, its a forum.
Posted by markhampyro
Let's be honest. Common sense is lacking throughout society. There are safety instructions on vast majority the product out there....which people never ever read.
Your right people never read them, and not having common sense is no excuse for hurting people. The guy at work is not dumb by any means, but he had no idea what he was in for when lighting it. Lets face it even the safety instructions on the side don't tell you what your in for. Even if its not a mandatory course and just a one day or one evening class, the material you could cover would do a lot of good the industry, less accidents the better all around. As for creating an underground market and the general public getting into the 1.3, I can't see that happening, like I said in the other post, its already to hard to pick up the 1.3 even with a pyro ticket. The underground market would only happen if prices take a huge spike in one area and not in another, like beer in Quebec vs. Ontario. Really I am a little surprised this hasn't happened. If a distributor gets in on the ground floor and says, look if you do a one day or a evening class on consumer firework works safety you get a certificate with a unique ID number and you can get a 15% discount on any online orders, I think that would increase traffic and orders to that distributor. Am I wrong??
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Post by khogan on Dec 2, 2016 17:50:17 GMT -5
Ya saying people will get 1.3 is a little bit of an exaggeration, but I do think if people were forced to have some cert to buy consumer fireworks from somewhere like Mystical or Rocket that there would be someone to step in and sell to people that don't want to bother with a cert. Here is an article that shows there are illeagle fireworks out there, may just be m-80s and not 1.3 shells but they can still be dangerous Surrey seizes 'record' $100K of illegal fireworks before Halloween: www.thenownewspaper.com/news/399076051.htmlEdit: here is a better article bc.ctvnews.ca/undercover-investigation-reveals-illegal-fireworks-for-sale-1.3126278 |
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Post by huggyd on Dec 2, 2016 20:02:43 GMT -5
Nice news report, thanks for the link.
BC I sort of think is a different animal. Around here one might go to the Indian Res. and pick up home made item, M80, + a whole lot more. You might be right, sure there are going to be store owner who sell to anyone, there already is. Make people aware there is this option to take a safety class and see what happens, really where is the harm, don't make it mandatory and see what happens. It would be damn good for parents to go with their kids.
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Post by Grisom on Dec 2, 2016 20:03:28 GMT -5
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 2, 2016 20:06:44 GMT -5
As mentioned above, make courses for what was legal to buy use and so on and regulate it and voila a black market arises, look in history oh at just about anything Prohibition, or the firearms new regulations that did not exist before some dummy decided to change things "for safety and security" blah blah
It would hurt the market in huge ways or turn regular folks into criminals overnight (because no one would want to follow that crap), which is what all the regulations or government past/present and future is doing to us now.
There are rules about using knives to hurt people or kill them and well ... that does not seem to stop anyone.
There are warning labels on just about everything and there at least 100 examples of people doing the exact opposite.
I say take the warning labels off and let the Darwin awards begin, if you need to be told, labeled and shown and you still manage to F up with arrows and labels on products then you should not operate a pencil.
As a society we are bombarded and overcrowded by government regulations and control of our lives.
As for safety well many of the major retailers like Mystical and others have safety pages telling folks don't point roman candles at anyone, don't hold in hand etc and guess what every teenager does??? Yes I know you have to be 18+ to buy fireworks... yes and no under 18 year old ever got drunk, high or fired or was in possession of a firearm.....
My 10 cents
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Post by huggyd on Dec 2, 2016 21:37:18 GMT -5
As mentioned above, make courses for what was legal to buy use and so on and regulate it and voila a black market arises, look in history oh at just about anything Prohibition, or the firearms new regulations that did not exist before some dummy decided to change things "for safety and security" blah blah It would hurt the market in huge ways or turn regular folks into criminals overnight (because no one would want to follow that crap), which is what all the regulations or government past/present and future is doing to us now. There are rules about using knives to hurt people or kill them and well ... that does not seem to stop anyone. There are warning labels on just about everything and there at least 100 examples of people doing the exact opposite. I say take the warning labels off and let the Darwin awards begin, if you need to be told, labeled and shown and you still manage to F up with arrows and labels on products then you should not operate a pencil. As a society we are bombarded and overcrowded by government regulations and control of our lives. As for safety well many of the major retailers like Mystical and others have safety pages telling folks don't point roman candles at anyone, don't hold in hand etc and guess what every teenager does??? Yes I know you have to be 18+ to buy fireworks... yes and no under 18 year old ever got drunk, high or fired or was in possession of a firearm..... My 10 cents Yeah I get your point, and I do totally agree with "As a society we are bombarded and overcrowded by government regulations and control of our lives." as well as the other points. Really I would hate to see more people make the news and fireworks get a total ban or even go as far as BC did with only the Halloween being allowed, all because there being to many people wanting that Darwin award. History has also shown the few Fu*k it up for the many. When I get a chance I'll read that link. www.surrey.ca/city-government/21375.aspx |
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Post by Grisom on Dec 2, 2016 21:46:11 GMT -5
The article that Khogan first listed is based from the Surrey gov link . They just changed the picture otherwise the copy ( writing ) is the same . It is the picture you should focus on .
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Post by huggyd on Dec 3, 2016 4:08:26 GMT -5
Ok I took a fast look at the pic, didn't read over the article. Looks like a lot of consumer fireworks and family packs, stuff that wouldn't be considered illegal here in Ontario. I wasn't able to zoom in and see if there was any 1.3, I would assume not.
At some stage there is a tipping point and I seem to think the more bad news that shows up, people getting hurt \ houses on fire anything surrounding fireworks the gov. will look at this and say "just take them away from the public" Local or Provencal either way its a bad thing. I could be way off base in saying that an education class is the way to go but just letting Darwin take over is going to end with the few Fu*king it up for the many.
www.lfpress.com/2016/06/27/canada-day-fireworks-worth-10000-stolen-from-trailer-in-northwest-london
"....A London fireworks vendor lost nearly half his inventory in a break-in leading up to Canada Day, the busiest week in the business.
More than $13,000 worth of fireworks were looted from a storage container at a northwest London plaza, leaving owner Moe Hamid fuming."
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Post by khogan on Dec 3, 2016 10:23:37 GMT -5
It's hard to see whats in the pic, but a lot of items I don't recognize. Are some US consumer fireworks? There is an item in the middle that looks like a NOAB, or is that the mystical 9 shot thing? Here is another article from a couple years ago that's clear, looks like a lot more firecrackers which IMO are pretty dangerous as well. Any idea what the orange containers in the front are? www.surrey.ca/city-government/16084.aspxLike I said people getting 1.3 is a bit of an exaggeration but my point is when something is not available, people will sell it illegally, and when you are dealing with criminals then all regulations are out the window. They got this stuff from the goofs that put ads on Craigslist and whatnot, maybe there are some smart criminals that did not get caught and they have more dangerous stuff. One time while up north I was on a lake pretty close to some houses where it did not seem like an appropriate place to light off 1.3 but I found a bunch of larger tube inserts and burnt up pieces of quickmatch in the grass, so either someone did a pro show in a very tight area and did not clean up after themselves, or someone was lighting off 1.3 illegally. I am not against safety courses and I like your idea that some vendor do a course and then give a discount for people that complete it, but I don't see them getting a big benefit out of it so that's probably why they don't. We should do our part by coming up with some safety information and post it prominently on the site. |
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Post by huggyd on Dec 4, 2016 9:37:14 GMT -5
I wonder if the orange cans are tannerite?
"Like I said people getting 1.3 is a bit of an exaggeration but my point is when something is not available, people will sell it illegally, and when you are dealing with criminals then all regulations are out the window. They got this stuff from the goofs that put ads on Craigslist and whatnot, maybe there are some smart criminals that did not get caught and they have more dangerous stuff."
Regardless its going to happen. Its not so much about making it illegally, its more about making people aware. My friend at work would have made the small cake safe if he was aware what could happen. Putting small writing on the side of a small cake does not do much, and really adding safety info on a website, while good to have it, at the time of sparking up a fuse doesn't help. Fireworks seem to be, for the general public, trial by error or learn by lighting, "Oh nuts it went that far..... sorry neighbor"
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Post by khogan on Dec 4, 2016 10:53:18 GMT -5
tannerite was my first thought also, I searched google images and don't see any images that are an exact match but they all look similar and are colored orange. As far as as a mandatory safety course goes, I do agree it's a good idea to have a safety course, I even agree that maybe people should not be able to buy large cakes without some training and that cakes should have better instructions on them. But I don't think there should be a mandatory course to get any consumer fireworks. I am not convinced that your buddy would take a safety course, sounds like he did not even read the instructions on the product. You proposed a question to him about a safety course after he had an accident, who in that state is going to say it's a bad idea? If he could not take the 30 seconds to read the instructions then why would he really go out of his way for a safety course. Maybe he would now that this incident happened but does not sound like he was too concerned with safety before that. You said in another post "The guy at work is not dumb by any means, but he had no idea what he was in for when lighting it." I don't think hes dumb but he lacked judgment in this situation. If he had no idea what he was in for maybe he should have though about it for a minute, he was lighting an explosive device with other people around him. I think this is the problem in general, people have a lack of respect for fireworks and what they can do. Unless your buddy was lighting a Vulcan cake, then maybe we can forgive him even if he read the instructions   |
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 4, 2016 11:06:38 GMT -5
Yeah I get your point, and I do totally agree with "As a society we are bombarded and overcrowded by government regulations and control of our lives." as well as the other points. Really I would hate to see more people make the news and fireworks get a total ban or even go as far as BC did with only the Halloween being allowed, all because there being to many people wanting that Darwin award. History has also shown the few Fu*k it up for the many. When I get a chance I'll read that link. www.surrey.ca/city-government/21375.aspxI agree with you, I am on your side as far as wanting to help keep people safe and to use fireworks in a safe manner. As for your quote on history your also right but that is where we the professionals and consumers need to tell the government f -off with your over crowding of regulations as has been done before, still is happening and will happen in future. If you think for one minute that our government (Past/present or future) gives a rats arse about fairness you might want to ask any firearms owner in the past 30 or so years how they change rules at a whim because some specialty group that is federally funded and a minority can change things to screw it up for the majority. So I apologize but there is no middle ground with government on rules and regulations it is what they want how they want and when they want - don't believe me try doing the opposite in plain site and see what happens. At the end of the day there is no rules that will stop stupid from happening or from a stupid person from doing stupid things with any item in out society for example: firearms are used for hunting, target shooting and collecting but it does not stop you from using it in an illegal fashion, license or no license -0 government regulation and safety courses out the rear end and still there is no physical barrier stopping you nor can there be it is humanly impossible. Same applies for knives, axes, chain saws (now here is one everyone forgets) your personal or commercial vehicle (ask the folks in France about this one) There is no stopping ignorance or illegal actions with improper use or abuse of any item in society - there are only laws and regulations that serve as guides as to what we should and should not do, that is it that is all. So you still think we should add a few more to the books that wont stop anything? or the fact there is not enough folks to enforce the ones we have already? |
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Post by huggyd on Dec 4, 2016 21:03:59 GMT -5
True, hindsight is 20/20 So take the word 'Mandatory' out of the whole equations, does that change the picture? Sure I asked my bud that question after he had a mishap and him saying basically that he would if it was somehow "worth his while" one could look at that and think, wow safety don't mean that much to him. If there was a TV commercial out with a house that was burned out and people that were hurt, follow by "know what your getting into, take a safety course for the sake of your family" I might drive the message home. Do I think people would flock to it....no of course not. Even if someone did a info night with a presentation and have the local AHJ there to fill in questions if you found the right place you could do some small examples and light off some Consumer Firework. Or take a different approach, you could start with a school system presentation and put some fear of in the kids, kind of like what they did with smoking back in the day. Sure there are lots and lots of examples.... you need a fishing license and there is no course to teach you to not fish on top of dam or what type of fish that is and its not in season so put it back. Right now you have to be 18years old to buy, yet does that mean anything, nope..... "There is no stopping ignorance or illegal actions with improper use or abuse of any item in society - there are only laws and regulations that serve as guides as to what we should and should not do, that is it that is all." accidents happen, and stupid is as stupid does but human nature tends to lean towards "if no one told me that I can't do it, then it must be ok." and with a lot of these Consumer Fireworks accidents come down to is a blissful ignorance of any already existing laws, and safety practices. Is there any stopping it.... who knows, maybe not... does that mean lets not try? I do 100% agree with most \ all of you, once the government gets involved in any way, they will screw it up, and it will cost all of us. Guys keep in mind I am doing this to keep the conversation going, I don't like to visit this site and see no new posts, no added info. I personally think a school system presentation or info night with a presentation would be neat and I think something like that would be neat to be involved with (doing the hands on presentation part anyways) I can't stand the idea of only seeing fireworks on Halloween, or having them all out illegal because ...The few Fu*k it up for the many... (which I totally believe what is going to happens)  |
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 5, 2016 8:48:12 GMT -5
@ Huggyd - I never said don;t do anything I said there is nothing that can be done!
As the old saying says you can lead a horse to water but you can;t make him drink!
Or in our terms: you can lead a Pyro bug to pyro but you can't make him think!
If you really want to do something, protest the government the way folks do for pipelines and bring back firecrackers and allow anything in the USA here and then we will see accidents and deaths with pyro skyrocket.
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Post by khogan on Dec 5, 2016 8:58:44 GMT -5
If we take mandatory out of the equation it changes everything. I don't think anyone is against safety, but I am against more regulations.
I think you should talk to Mystical about this and see if its something they are interested in dong, maybe you can teach the course? I think it would be even better if the course is online/ recorded so that people can look at the material whenever they want, as if its just a one night thing people may want to attend but have other obligations. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help?
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 5, 2016 10:52:28 GMT -5
You all know there is a requirement by law that all the consumer stuff must come with safety information right?
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Post by khogan on Dec 5, 2016 15:03:54 GMT -5
You all know there is a requirement by law that all the consumer stuff must come with safety information right? Can you clarify this? Are you referring to the warning on the product, or is there actually supposed to be some additional information provided when you buy consumer fireworks? |
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 5, 2016 16:00:14 GMT -5
You all know there is a requirement by law that all the consumer stuff must come with safety information right? Can you clarify this? Are you referring to the warning on the product, or is there actually supposed to be some additional information provided when you buy consumer fireworks? First and foremost here is the "Safety" part for 1.4G (Consumer fireworks from ERD) link
Thant is for a few who don't realize it is already out there people just need to read it and adhere to it.. A whole different topic. To Answer Khogan - There is a requirement set that the Retailer must provide a safety sheet or post something to the consumer as a warning, and now when I am trying to find it on the that terrible web site know as ERD I can't find the information. I did see and read it but to the extent and wording I can;t remember 100% let me see if I can rummage around and find that. |
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Post by pyrotechsupply on Dec 5, 2016 16:03:14 GMT -5
I stand corrected I found the elusive information here: link(Please see the bottom bold part.) and this is what it reads (keep in mind this is Federal regulation):
Selling Consumer FireworksNo more than 1,000 kilograms (kg) of consumer fireworks may be stored in a sales establishment at any one time. If the sales establishment is located in a building that contains a dwelling, no more than 100 kg may be stored at any one time. The retailer must ensure that: all places where consumer fireworks are stored are at least 100 metres (m) from all above-ground storage tanks for flammable substances in bulk and at least 8 m from the following: fuel dispensers at a fuel dispensing station; retail propane-dispensing tanks and cylinders; above-ground storage tanks for flammable substances; dispensing facilities for compressed natural gas. If the sales establishment is temporary, the retailer must also ensure that: all places where consumer fireworks are stored are at least 8 m from all combustible materials, sources of ignition, thoroughfares, buildings or other temporary sales establishments and at least 3 m from any vehicle parking area; the sales establishment is a tent, the tent is made from flame-retardant material. When consumer fireworks are displayed for sale, the following requirements must be met: non-aerial fireworks in consumer packs or in packaging or containers that comply with the safety standards*must be separated into lots of 100 kg or less; aerial fireworks in packaging or containers that comply with the safety standards* must be separated into lots of 100 kg or less; all other fireworks, whether aerial or non-aerial, must be separated into lots of 25 kg or less; each lot must be separated from the other lots by a fire break; the fireworks must be kept away from flammable substances and sources of ignition; the fireworks must not be exposed to heat or dampness that might cause them to deteriorate; the fireworks must be separated from the ceiling and from any fire prevention system by at least 0.6 m; only people authorized by the retailer may have access to the area behind a sales counter; smoking must be prohibited within 8 m of the fireworks; the fireworks must be attended when the sales establishment is unlocked. Consumer fireworks cannot be sold to anyone who is less than 18 years of age and may be handled by a buyer only after they have been sold, unless they are in consumer packs or in packaging or containers that comply with specific safety standards*. However, aerial fireworks such as roman candles or cakes may only be directly accessible by the public prior to the sale if they are in packaging or containers that comply with specific safety standards*. If aerial fireworks are not packaged appropriately, they must be kept behind the sales counter or locked up (for example, in a cabinet) until point of sale. The seller must offer the buyer either a copy of the table that describes safety instructions for using consumer fireworks, which is found at the end of Part 16 in the Explosives Regulations, 2013, or a document that includes the same information.*Safety standards for means of containment under the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992. |
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