shooters owing money

 Personally I would warn other suppliers if this happened to me ( luckily for others it hasn't )

 The people that stiffed you will continue down the line until they are stopped . If they find out that no one will supply them then there is one less problem in this industry . 

 You would of likely asked for a certified cheque etc if someone else you had given you a heads up on those people . 

Light em up and put it out there no doubt. This is a black mark on the industry and like said above they will just continue down the line doing it to other people until they cant get product anymore.

Where are you located, curious if these bad apples are in my neigbourhood

Wow, they get around....

I hear what you are saying pyrot. If someone was to purchase product from me and fail to pay, their name should be mud and sued. They will do it again and again and therefore should be stopped. These people put a black eye on an industry that is very tough and heavily regulated.
For me as a small business I don't agree with volunteering. That word should not be in a fireworks vocabulary (my opinion). If you are on-site and perform work, you get paid. Period. Typically, if there are volunteers, they are not certified and most importantly not insured. God forbid anything was to go wrong (even if a show is 1.4G)that supervisor in charge and the organization are responsible for the outcome.

Come on over to Ontario lol

Plenty of opportunities for paid work

Unfortunately volunteering is a vital part of this business. I wouldn't be where I was today if I didn't volunteer on shows. There is only so much work to go around, and once the paid crew is finalized, it is either sit at home and do nothing, or go out and gain more experience. I agree that some companies do take advantage of volunteers, but if you love the industry, and want to prove yourself, then volunteering is your best option. Still to this day, I volunteer and have been onsite where some of the best technicians in Canada were volunteers.

Hi Kooks, I guess I am not portraying my point correctly. NO company should use volunteers to do the job in place of paid employees. But look at it from another angle. If you work for a fireworks company, but due to a large pool of employees they many have, you don't always get to work on shows. But, you still want to work, and are experienced. What do you want to do on Saturday night? Sit around watching TV, or go out and volunteer with your friends that are working on a fireworks show.

My point is not about companies taking advantage of volunteers, its about an experienced display supervisor wanting to be on site as much as possible, but can't always be paid because the other display supervisors need to be paid.

Are you saying that you have never asked to volunteer to gain experience working in situations you may never be able to get a chance to do on your own?

I have volunteered to work on huge displays, as I knew the crew was already set, and my only chance to be part of that display was to volunteer.

Insurance has nothing to do with my point. If the volunteer is a licensed display supervisor, it doesn't make a difference. The paid guys on site will always be responsible if something goes wrong. The supervisor who signed the permit and the company will always go down first. If it is determined that the volunteer made the error, then he/she will go down too, regardless if they are paid or volunteering.

As you stated also, I am just presenting my opinion. I am happy to discuss.

Hi Felix,

Holy crap! Look how long his post is!!! Grab a beverage of choice and take a read.
I’m open for constructive criticism…

I have been blessed that for the 13+ years that I have been certified, for every site that I have been on, I have been paid. And now as a small business owner, like aussie stated, my rates are in-line with his. I (and probably aussie too) provide food, water, Gatorade and sometimes hotel to my staff on site on the day of the show. I would love to shoot a show everyday (not just Saturday nights) and network with others and hang out with pyro friends too. Volunteering is a double edge sword. It has more facets to it than you think or led to believe. Believe it or not, one is insurance. You’re right, nobody mentioned insurance. However, the “what if?” question looms in the background.

Insurance is a huge thing and the fireworks insurance brokers are clamping down on volunteers and bad practices of the past. When the S.I.C. puts together the technical report for the show, it lists all the people involved with the shoot. The permit will not be issued without this disclosure. The crew listed to be on site, are certified by ERD of NRCan and to be insured by either the company or on their own. If a volunteer is listed, more often than not, they observed as an independent contractor (3rd party) with their own insurance. If, heaven forbid, an injury or property damage was to occur and the root cause stems from the actions from the volunteer (no matter how cool or experienced they are), I can bet you dollars to donuts, that volunteer will be hung out to dry first and then the others. If the volunteer is not listed as part of the shoot, it’s a violation of the permit and should not have been on a live site. At that point, it will not matter if Johnny’s buddy Sam came over to help/volunteer. That inch is now a mile and it will snowball. I don’t want this to happen to you or any “volunteer”. Hence this conversation. That being said, you can be a visitor (3 people max. as per section 4.5 of the book) on a live site if you are accompanied by a supervisor. However, as a visitor, you can see but no touchy touchy.

Let’s look at it from the company perspective. I just saved time and money by having an extra body on a shoot. Didn’t have to pay him his salary. Didn’t have to provide any food/drink/hotel. Didn’t have to claim him to CRA. Didn’t have to claim him to WSIB. Didn’t have to include him on our insurance (no additional premiums). This person is certified, worked for free, saved/made me money and nothing bad happened. Can I do this again and get away with it? Where else can I cut costs? Hey, let pick on the newbie and make him earn his three shows in five years by leveraging. That one inch turned into a mile again. In my opinion, ethically, it’s wrong. There are other ways to keep costs down but not by exploitation.

I feel, as is this Canadian forum, sharing with you the things I have learned along the way that is not written in a handbook. Generally, companies have the best intentions and are honourable. The intent is to inherently build safety into the shows. I feel bad for pyrot and his experience. I would not do that to him and as to what aussie offered, I’d offer him a position as well.

I hope I explained my perspective to your point.

On the issue of insurance every fireworks company liability insurance policy that I have ever had covered volunteer workers for both liability and bodily injury. This is a specific statement in the policy about volunteer workers. Paid workers are covered for liability but not bodily injury under a firework company liability insurance policy. This because it is liability insurance not worker compensation insurance or WSIB as it is referred to in Ontario.

There are insurance brokers and underwriters out there that have very little knowledge of the fireworks industry dictating terms of insurance to their customers. If you find yourself in this position you should shop other companies for the coverage you need. You should not be made to feel that your insurance company is "clamping down" on you as long as you are operating your business safely to limit liability and within the laws and regulations. Insuring fireworks companies particularly in Canada is a highly profitable business so as an industry we need to start telling the insurance companies what we need not have terms dictated to us.

I do not think it is wrong for a display assistant to work unpaid until they are competent as they are learning. If they work their first shows without pay it shows me commitment and a genuine interest in display fireworks. But it is wrong for companies to unreasonably use this situation for free labor. Once a display assistant is competent they should be given their letter of recommendation so they can upgrade. Once upgraded they should be paid. Companies need to be honest with display assistants and not string them along with the promise of Display Supervisor certification to get free labor from them. If a Display Assistant has expenses due to long travel distances or if they haul equipment for the show they should be compensated for that. Display Assistants should provide their own safety gear (a good lesson in taking care of your own safety) but setup and lighting supplies should be provided by the company.

Display fireworks shows are hard work and long hours and the pay should reflect that. As a fireworks company I want to retain a group of experienced Display Supervisors. I think that safety is compromised if you are constantly having turnover in your group of Display Supervisors.

If a show is already fully staffed and a Display Supervisor wants to come and work on the show just because they want to take part in the show I don't have a problem with that. There should be no reason that the crew list can't change unless the local authority having jurisdiction is completely inflexible on that point. There is nothing in the Explosives regulations or Display Manual that stops a Display Supervisor from changing a crew list.

Just as a note this thread started with a poster that was talking about a fireworks company selling fireworks to a shooter who was shooting their own show that did not pay for the fireworks. The original post has been taken down.

That makes a bit more sense

Can we get the Admins to delete this thread?

No regrets on asking the question. I got the answers I was looking for. And a lot more. The sheer volume of unsolicited phone calls asking me and the company I work for was enough for me to want to delete. We had people from almost coast to coast, many you may see on the forums, and more that you don't that are lurking out there checking in... had people I expected we could hear from who likely would be potentially dealing with similar client bases, and also from people who do not share the client bases and in my opinion never would - but just wanted in on the gossip (in my opinion).
I looked to delete the whole thread - that was not an option. So I deleted my posts within.
The good news is it started a whole new side thread, about volunteering. It has been good reading.
I tend to side with Felix. I enjoy having people on my sites. I find that I know what size of crew I want/need and I look to book them. Sometimes, due to a variety of reasons, people ask to join an already filled crew. I almost never say no. But I am always up front and explain what compensation they will receive if any at all. If you are volunteering for me, we will both agree to that. I've done the same, offered to join a site just to be there, whether its to hang out with some people I want to, see a band I want, take part in a event of a lifetime... Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Do people and companies take advantage of volunteers? Very likely so. Do some individuals use volunteering to get their three shows in so they can license as supervisors and do grand things? Very likely so.