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Post by djwolf on Dec 4, 2017 18:26:24 GMT -5
Hello All
I'm looking at getting my own insurance, who would you recommend for someone to contact, I only do a couple solo shows a year.
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Post by bigtop on Dec 5, 2017 17:03:03 GMT -5
I am not aware that there is insurance available at a reasonable price for someone doing a couple of shows a year. Last I heard a 1 off show policy was $2500.00 and to get annual coverage multiples more than that.
The situation as I know it is that the only affordable options someone wanting insurance for 1 or 2 shows are
1 - To be insured under the insurance of the company selling the fireworks. This is liability insurance, it covers others that may have a loss as a result of you shooting the show. It will only be valid if you are using only the products of the company.
2 - To be insured under the policy of the municipality or other organization that you are shooting the show for. The municipality or other organization often has to pay a small addition fee on their insurance policy to have the fireworks shooting covered. You often have to be a part of the municipality or organization to be covered under the policy. For instance if you are on the fire department of the municipality.
If anyone out there knows of a more affordable policy for a guy shooting a show or 2 a year please say so. There should be easily available independent insurance for shooters.
To the best of my knowledge the actuarial work done to calculate the risk and therefore the cost of fireworks insurance in Canada is based on United States and worldwide statistics. As a result I believe we are paying far too much for insurance. The loss paid out on fireworks insurance in Canada I would guess is much lower than other countries. This is because we have the federal training program and safety regulations. These regulations include the indestructible rack standard and regulation on the use of Ematches. Large numbers of racks falling over when there is an in mortar explosion and unintended initiation of display fireworks by Ematches are huge contributors to injury and property damage in other countries. It also helps that all display fireworks in Canada are shot by someone with training. In many US states you can buy and shoot display fireworks just with permit from the ATF that includes no training.
If anyone out there in the insurance business was willing to do the actuarial work on Canadian display fireworks they would open up an opportunity for themselves to undercut the market price and get a large share of the fireworks insurance market in Canada.
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Insurance
Dec 5, 2017 20:08:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Aussie on Dec 5, 2017 20:08:26 GMT -5
You can’t just buy insurance off the supplier anymore
They have to have a clause in their policy allowing it, quite a few have had their pee pee slapped for selling insurance
The insurance companies want $$$ and having a supplier sell it, cuts them out.
I can sell it as I’m sure a few others can but it’s a steep price
$1000 per show. If you don’t have a contract with me
Every show I have has a signed contract between me and the sponsor. The contract allows me to supply them with insurance, In turn, my permit gets approved
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Insurance
Dec 5, 2017 20:12:11 GMT -5
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Post by Aussie on Dec 5, 2017 20:12:11 GMT -5
I could be wrong but there are no Canadian companies supplying insurance for the fireworks industry, only brokers. Lloyd’s of London and a few US companies deal with our industry.
If I am wrong I’d love to know who the Canadian insurers are.
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Post by bigtop on Dec 5, 2017 21:56:27 GMT -5
Unless a fireworks company is an insurance broker they never could legally sell insurance. There were companies that were charging a fee called administration or something else to provide an insurance certificate.
I think the company that you are referring to is the one that I have been insured by. I am not sure if the actions they took were about wanting more $$$ or just a lack of knowledge of what they are insuring.
As far as I am concerned my customers that are buying display fireworks as a certified user (Display Supervisor) not a licensee and are not associated with an organization that can insure them need insurance to shoot their show. This is a necessary operation of my business. I presented the facts of my operation to a broker that was willing to work on my behalf. The result is I have insurance that covers what I need covered to operate my Display Fireworks sales business.
Stop listening to the brokers and underwriters that will not provide the insurance you need.
If anyone has any questions feel free to give me a call. My number is on my website.
I think it is correct that Lloyd's is providing most if not all of the fireworks insurance in Canada. But there are different Underwriters that will write different clauses. Just a couple of years ago AIG Canada who changed their name to Chartis and then Back to AIG Canada was providing fireworks insurance. I am not sure if this was directly through AIG as they did own a Lloyd's Syndicate until recently.
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Post by bigtop on Dec 6, 2017 11:00:43 GMT -5
I checked with my Insurance Broker this morning and they are Licensed in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. He also mentioned he would pursue licensing in the rest of Canada if needed.
My company sells Wholesale, Retail and shoots Display Fireworks. My broker arranged insurance that allows me to operate as I always have including a solution for Display Supervisors buying fireworks from me that need a certificate of insurance. Complete with an increase in property coverage the cost for my policy was substantially less.
So if you have experienced service or terms from your insurance company that you are not happy with I would Recommend Josh King at Ruban Insurance Brokers in Winnipeg Manitoba.
I still am not aware of an affordable solution for djwolf for a couple of shows a year. But because it is a legal requirement to shoot a display fireworks show I want Display Supervisors to know that it is still possible to get a certificate of insurance through the policy of the company that sold them the Display Fireworks.
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Insurance
Dec 6, 2017 20:05:27 GMT -5
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Post by Aussie on Dec 6, 2017 20:05:27 GMT -5
I’m with Everest via a broker here in Canada too
I’d very much like to kick someone in the ass who is trying to justify the rather high cost of insurance for the Canadian industry.
Only one other than Lloyd’s I couldfind that would even return my calls, lloyds was higher for the same
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Post by bigtop on Dec 6, 2017 22:03:08 GMT -5
If you Google Everest Lloyds the first suggestion that comes up is Everest Lloyds Syndicate. Everest's association with Lloyds is explained on their website.
I will no longer do business with Everest due to terrible customer service and their not issuing insurance certificates with the same terms that I had them issued under for many years. This all happened last June when it was crazy busy. I did not appreciate the stress. I am guessing you got some of the same Emails "Clarifying Terms and Procedures" that I did. I had a very detailed and clear discussion years ago when I first purchased insurance through the US company that was brokering the policy. There was no misunderstanding of the terms under which a certificate of insurance could be issued. They were great. You could fill your own certificates online on a system that could be viewed by the broker so they could check your certificates. It was after Purves Redmond took over as broker for the Everest policy that this all happened.
I will never do business with those people again.
The above mentioned Broker negotiated the policy with Markel who also deals with Lloyds. Lloyds is the market, Markel is the underwriter and Ruban is the Broker. It is the Broker and underwriter that make the difference.
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Post by djwolf on Mar 14, 2018 12:18:00 GMT -5
Thank you all for the info
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john
Junior Pyro Member
Licenced Fireworks Supervisor 25-30 years
Posts: 28 
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Post by john on May 9, 2018 19:31:31 GMT -5
You can try Marsh Canada Insurance.I used to get Insurance for shows from Hands fireworks.This is the company that supplied insurance for Hands.
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Post by kooks on May 10, 2018 9:11:56 GMT -5
Marsh doesn't insure fireworks anymore. Has not done it for a few years.
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Post by londonfan on May 10, 2018 22:00:00 GMT -5
I'm just a once a year consumer guy, but this is an interesting thread.
My nephew just graduated from UWO as an Actuary and is working in a small firm. I will pass this industry problem on to him to see if he can take it on, even as a sideline project.
He has been my firing assistant for the last few years for my ever growing Canada Day extravaganza, so he will be at least a bit interested.
I will report back to this thread if he makes any progress with an analysis.
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Post by djwolf on May 12, 2018 16:52:00 GMT -5
Thank you
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Post by londonfan on May 25, 2018 5:34:08 GMT -5
So...
I talked to my nephew about this and found out how much I don't know about what he actually does/what it takes.
His reply was, "Are you ******* nuts? I might consider taking that on for $50,000!"
He then started explaining the amount of data and work involved.
I stopped listening after a few minutes.
I will keep applying pressure.
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Post by bigtop on May 31, 2018 14:36:44 GMT -5
So to get an idea of the value of premiums paid for fireworks insurance in Canada I
1 - took the total value of fireworks imported into Canada in 2016 from the CID online database ($16,168,926 Canadian dollars).
2 - took the amount that I pay for insurance for the volume of fireworks that I import and extrapolated that number to the total value of imports.
The number I came up with is an estimate that insurance cost for the fireworks industry is a bit over $800,000 Canadian.
My best guess is that it is higher because an importer pays an insurance premium based on their sales volume and then a shooting company that buys from the importer then pays again on their volume of sales.
I think it is a pretty reasonable assumption that the total value of insurance premiums paid for fireworks insurance in Canada is well over $1,000,000 Canadian dollars.
It would seem that quite a bit of the info for the actuarial work would be supplied by the CID and the ERD.
Hopefully this info is enough to get an insurance company to do the actuarial work to offer insurance rates based on claim costs in Canada rather that USA/Worldwide costs being used.
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Post by fireworksinstitute on Jul 11, 2018 4:34:45 GMT -5
Hi All,
New this year is the Institute of Professional Pyrotechnicians. This is a non-profit organization for professional licensed fireworks display supervisors.
By joining the Institute of Professional Pyrotechnicians, smaller scale shooters are able to opt in to the group insurance plan.
Shooters crews are automatically covered, and shooters can extend their coverage to the show sponsors or municipalities.
This program is brokered by Purves, insured by Markel, and underwritten by Lloyd's.
Feel free to contact the association at admin@fireworksinstitute.com for more information.
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Post by huggyd on Jul 13, 2018 10:28:22 GMT -5
I am getting a little confused, could you just outline the process in relation to the Institute.
Pay to join Fireworks Institute - $yearly membership
A display supervisor gets a call for a show, involves 1.3 and or 1.4 fireworks. At this point no paper work is done other then maybe a show contract saying at this location on this day with these people at this cost, for this example let put the total product cost at $1000. No product has been ordered. To get the 1.3 I need to show insurance coverage and a JOA (jurisdiction of authority)letter. Assuming this is the Supervisor only show for the year. Does the Supervisor call the Institute with info about the show to get coverage are we dealing with Purves and calling them with a Institute Membership number and at $1000 what is that going to work out to??
Sorry I am just missing something, somewhere....
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Post by fireworksinstitute on Jul 13, 2018 16:33:43 GMT -5
Hi huggdy,
I hope this helps....
The IPP is a non-profit association where licensed display supervisors (and assistants) can come together to learn, share, and network.
To join this it costs $375 (plus applicable sales taxes depending on the province of residence). Membership gains you access to programs and benefits.
One of the programs/benefits of membership, its that supervisors can obtain their insurance through the group plan of the association.
The cost for this is $525 per year (plus applicable sales taxes depending on the province of residence). This covers small shooters.
A display supervisor, who is a members in good standing and has opted into the insurance plan, gets a call for a show....
If they do not need to extend their insurance to anyone, such as their sponsor or the landowner or the municipality...then yes nothing more is needed and they are covered (as well as their crew). If they need to provide extension of coverage to their client/sponsor/landowner, then you fill out a fillable pdf request and email that directly to your insurance broker. They will respond with a copy of the your insurance ride naming your extensions.
Once you have become a member, you will receive a welcome email with your membership number.
If you have opted into the insurance program, you will receive a copy of your own Certificate of Insurance and a copy of the insurers form for extending your insurance.
At this point, you are insured to cover the shows that you shoot and the crew working with you.
So for your $1000 show at Bob's Sugar Shack, if it were me shooting, I would fill out the form to extend my insurance to the land owner (Bob's Sugar Shack) and my sponsoring organization, i.e. Bob's Ag Society. I send this form to the insurance agent, who will process my extension and send it back. I then provide my client a copy of the insurance ride showing they are named. There is no additional cost for each show. The only costs is the annual fee that was paid when you opted into the program (and membership fee).
The association will never need, or want, to know specific details about a members' clients! But if we do hear them or help a shooter with something, please know that everyone at the association is required to adhere to a strict confidentiality agreement.
If you shoot 10 - $1000 shows in a year....the costs remain the same as if you shot 2 shows worth $5000 each ( $375 + 525 ).
Please let me now if it is still not clear...and I will try to clarify better.
S
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